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enlightenment
November 2009 
Grumpy Krishnamurti
Posted on Mar 28th, 2007
by 
Sandra
Sandra
I just wandered over to C4's place, and heard that U.G. Krishnamurti died on March 22, 2007. (my mother's birthday...). He was 89 years old. C4 has written a bit on his blog, so do go there. I also made a comment, but since I have loved this man for years I wanted to add a few more words. There are many quotes from him on my profile page, and just a couple of days after his death I posted this one:
As I mentioned in my comment to C4's blog, I did indeed call him 'the grumpy Krishnamurti' to distinguish him from Jiddu Krishnamurti, another light in my life, who I only found out about two years after his death in 1986. In fact I think Jiddu was also often quite grumpy, it's just that his demeanor was mostly beatific. (They met, and some of their interactions are quoted on the U.G. wiki page.) And U.G's straight telling about life and our quest for so-called enlightenment was often a bit like a bludgeon. Personally I liked this...and it helped to scrape away any ego-driven illusions about the quest I might have had. For example..
And thanks to Mushin ( see the comments below) here is the U.G. "song":
Although I suspect U.G. would just grumble at me saying this, but I believe he was a man of light and love.
“Consciousness is so pure that whatever you are doing in the direction of purifying that consciousness is adding impurity to it.”
As I mentioned in my comment to C4's blog, I did indeed call him 'the grumpy Krishnamurti' to distinguish him from Jiddu Krishnamurti, another light in my life, who I only found out about two years after his death in 1986. In fact I think Jiddu was also often quite grumpy, it's just that his demeanor was mostly beatific. (They met, and some of their interactions are quoted on the U.G. wiki page.) And U.G's straight telling about life and our quest for so-called enlightenment was often a bit like a bludgeon. Personally I liked this...and it helped to scrape away any ego-driven illusions about the quest I might have had. For example..
"All gurus are welfare organizations providing petty experiences to their followers. The guru game is a profitable industry; try and make two million dollars a year any other way."
"You are trying to enforce peace through violence. Yoga, meditation, prayers, mantras, are all violent techniques. The living organism is very peaceful; you don't have to do a thing. The peacefully functioning body doesn't care one hoot for your ecstasies, beatitudes, or blissful states."
and..There are many more wonderful quotes and photos of U.G. on this website.
I've noticed that when I read Jiddu Krishnamurti, I smile and feel like I have been 'met', when I read U.G. I sit up straight and feel the force of life flowing through me. I'm deeply grateful to both men. (many of my blogs have quotes from Jiddu).
Here is a YouTube of U.G, I'm on a phone line right now, so haven't been able to see it myself... U.G. Krishnamurti on misery
U.G. Krishnamurti - relationship
And thanks to Mushin ( see the comments below) here is the U.G. "song":
The U.G. - Song
Although I suspect U.G. would just grumble at me saying this, but I believe he was a man of light and love.
Access: Public
Oh look at the play of this stick
When you were born, I was your first home,
When you were a boy, I was your toy
When you got married, I was the one, who sanctified it,
When you got old, I was the third leg that you hold,
When you died, I was the last resting place that you laid in.
What am I? Clue
Cradle
Bat
‘Yagna Maundup’ (a holy fire that Indian marriages are sanctified with)
Walking stick
‘Agni Sanskar’ (Cremation) or Coffin
All these are made of wood (in some part or the other) and have a significant role to play in everyone’s life.
This comment was actually inspired by a folk song that I heard recently in Hindi.
The moral is that we will continuously be played upon with this stick; unless we get out of this cycle of birth and death. I believe he did.
Sandra, I can picture U.G. and J riding in a cab together, the proverbial Odd Couple:
J: Do you have any asprin or tylenol UG? My head is killing me.
UG: You've always got a headache J. Why are you taking that crap anyway. Let the body heal itself.
J: That's easy for you to say UG, you haven't had head pain for 20 years like I've had.
UG: You still haven't gotten over what Leadbetter and Blavatsky did to you, have you?…
UG: …You still dress the part.
J: Get a haircut!
UG: Driver, are we there yet?
UG and J were two wonderful soundings in the fog of spirituality. Both have been “uppa” loaded. Thanks for bringing this to light Sandra. Always, Ron
heh heh! I couldn't resist this one Ron….
J: Get a haircut!
UG: What's the bloody point? We are only created for the flies to suck our blood!
J:How do you know that? That's just a conditioned thought. You're just burdened by the past like everyone else.
U.G.: Oh, and you're not? What about Leadbetter and Blavatsky? You still haven't said a word about that one.
J: I'm not going to agree with you or disagree with you. At least I live fully while you just sit there and bark at people.
U.G: Bark? Of course I bark. Everyone is a dog, just wanting a master. You are just like the others, setting yourself up as some kind of guru.
J: Rubbish. You know I'm always telling them not to listen to me.
U:G. Yes, you 'the speaker' stuff. I've heard all about it. “The speaker is only a mirror. Where you can see yourself. When you recognize yourself clearly, you can put aside the mirror.”
J: What? What's wrong with that? That's a good one.
U.G. It's okay. I have much better ones. Hows this for starters: “A messiah is the one who leaves a mess behind him in this world.”
J. Yes that's good.
U.G. :Thought you'd like it.
J. You weren't referring to me, where you?
U.G: Oh noo, not at all. You stopped all that, didn't you? Star of the East stuff.
J: All rubbish.
U.G. Speaking of rubbish, the taxi's stuck in it. Big pile of cow shit. We'll have to walk.
J: Walk?! I can't walk in that muck.
U.G. You think I can? I'm wearing my Gucci's…
(see travels with U.G. UG, is he for real? J.Krishnamurti, stories, quotes and questions)
“UG & J Advertising, god speaking, how may I break you.” ( It's actually you Sandra, your god's secretary. Thanks for the morning laugh, about 4 minutes worth. Good yogic movement. : )))))))
Thanx Sandra for putting this up, and Ron for getting this funny dialogue going…
I kept reading UG when I was with my teacher, very disconcerting matter - must've been one of the motives that got me finally out of that whole game altogether.
“grumpy Krishnamurti” indeed.
I really liked him.
… I just added another video, UG on relationship :-)
Sandra, Thanks for these two videos. He seemed very playful in the misery piece and mellow in the relationship, he doesn't seem to have a desire for the vitriol. Watching his hands in the first video… there's where energy is noticeable. When he extends his arm upward but holds his hand bent at the wrist like a waiter carrying a tray of food, it's as if he is offering you something. But if you're not paying attention…
wow! Sandra, thanks for all the info.
to be honest, i'm more influenced by UG than by Jiddu. i don't know why. intellectually i find Jiddu fascinating, but in my guts, i find UG more liberating.
but for the record, i think UG's expression is more attuned to the “absolute” nature of reality. (e.g. that nothing can be attained), but in the relative, UG's state of existence is not very useful for the evolution of society at large. and i think he would agree :)
here's to the Grumpy Krishnamurti :)
@Ron: LOL
~C
while browsing and seeing a few grumpy-murti videos I also stumble across this little animation of spirit which puts the whole advaita teaching in a 2 min. video
And the UG -Song; I like it
Oh, Mushin thanks for those! Wonderful. I think I have make a whole blog of the animation.. And I'll add the fabulous song to this one!
And today this was sent to me:
Mukunka Rao sends notice of U.G. Krishnamurti's passing
Remembering U.G. Krishnamurti
U.G. Krishnamurti, lovingly called UG by his friends and admirers all
over the world, is no more. The end came on 22 March 2007 at 2.30 pm at
the villa of his friend, in Vallecrosia, Italy. As per UG’s advice,
with no rituals or funeral rites, the cremation was carried out by
Mahesh Bhatt the next day at 2.45 pm, in Vallecrosia, Italy. He was
eighty-nine years old. UG is survived by his erstwhile family, comprising his
two daughters, Usha and Bharati, and their respective families and his
son, Kumar and his family. But his actual family is much larger than
that, extending over the entire globe and consisting of numerous
‘friends’ to whom he has been closer than their own families and indeed
their own selves.
Seven weeks before, UG had a fall and injured himself. This was the
second such occurrence in two years. He did not want such an incident to
occur once again which would make him further dependent on his friends
for his daily maintenance. So he refused medical or other external
intervention. He decided to let his body take its own natural course. He
was confined to bed and his consumption of food and water became
infrequent and then ceased altogether. ‘It’s time to go,’ he declared,
joined his palms in namaste, thanked his friends and advised them to
return to their places. Only his longtime friends, the filmmaker, Mahesh
Bhatt, Larry and Susan Morris, and few other friends stayed back to
guard his body and do whatever was necessary when the end came. UG did not
die of any disease, although he suffered from ‘cardio-spasm’ for
many years, which became quite severe in the last days of his life.
UG did not show the slightest signs of worry or fear about death or
concern for his body even at the end of his life. He did not leave any
specific instructions as to how to dispose of his dead body. ‘You can
throw it on the garbage heap, as far as I am concerned,’ he often
would say.
Responding to questions on death, UG said, ‘Life and death cannot be
separated. When what you call clinical death takes place, the body
breaks itself into its constituent elements and that provides the basis for
the continuity of life. In that sense the body is immortal.’
Sandra,
I spent some time at your profile today and listened to your voice. It was a delight to watch the Krishnamurti clips. I am so glad to be alive in this techical time, when it is possible to do so. You continue to bring new bits to my attention that I might have missed but for you.
I knew nothing about him. Perhaps I've heard Krishnamurti but didn't even know that this could refer to more than one person. His messages were meaningful for me at this moment in my life and I have saved the quotes you shared.
I especially liked “whatever you are doing in the direction of purifying that consciousness is adding impurity”. As I stubbornly attempt to peel away layers that have accumulated on me in this lifetime, I will continue to ponder that one.
Deborah
Thank you dear Deborah.
Yes isn't it an amazing time we live in. Sometimes I forget to be grateful - so thank you for the reminder!
Love,
Sandra
Funny thing i see with these men is ug parroting jiddu,but jiddu was so non-judgemental he wouldnt respond to ugs comments,i once read jiddus comments that it takes a very dull mind to be interested in gossiping about others,and i think ug falls into this caterogy.but i suppose you take the path that suits yourself and for the life of me i cannot find anything in ugs teachings only misery,now considering your own mind is your own world,i think his world was what he said it was…nothing,not no-thing but nothing.and he could never see his own trap,but jiddu for me is unattached,he draws you in with clever weaving,he uses thought,as using a thorn to remove a thorn and then the light of being shines through,my opinon is ug is misery,jiddu is light!
88.
Goldendawn I don't know why I like UG so much, something to do with his uncompromising irreverance. And yes, he wasn't perfect, that's for sure!
priyatam.. 88? is that an emoticon? I have no idea what it means!
I stumbled across this again recently, and just wanted to thank you, Sandra, for posting. Though he’d probably lambaste me for it, UGK is one of my cheeky heroes.
Sandra,UG is only a reflection of your thinking,anything you see in him can only be in you,he says this alot,my problem with him is that he said he wasnt in conflict with society,but he condemned alot of people and ways of this world,if he trully loved “What Is” he would have not got so angry,and realised that he is powerless to change “What is”.enlightenment is basically having no arguement with reality or What Is,he condemned people for experiencing pleasure,for eating too much,for their reilgions,i once heard he mocking people who jogg!i mean come on,love doesnt judge,he is a waste of time,he said “thought is the enemy”unconditional love sees no enemy,there is no enemy.What is,is.nobody can change that
Ooh! The conversation reawakens!
goldendawn: Funny, but I’ve never felt anger from UG; to my mind his talks about “thought being the enemy” and his tongue-in-cheek condemnation of other gurus were more a light-hearted and playful way to wake people out of their habitual views and a means to tip-upside-down the conventional way of looking at spirituality. I never got the sense he held anger or vitriol in himself; merely that these were tools to stir up the world and keep the moment fresh and alive. I truly don’t think he saw anything as an enemy, or anything to be feared, and I think he’d agree with you–what is, nobody can change that. :)
I have to say I’m with Siona, goldendawn… but I never met UG in person. I have had interactions with another teacher which I experienced as deeply profound & loving, while apparently ‘harsh’ (to others who were witnessing the interaction). The only ‘truth’ I have is how I feel listening to UG and it’s always good!
Love,
S.
I had missed this before, Sandra! What a wonderful tribute – and a hilarious series of mock conversations in the comments!
You’re right that the original JK was kinda grumpy, too. When I worked at Rajghat, I would sometimes listen to tapes of K’s talks to teachers there, helping to transcribe them,and man! He was quite testy with them, berating them repeatedly for their bone-headedness…
HE was blasting his own friends,he said their food orgies were like their sex orgies,do any of you here detect a subtle judge??he spoke from presence,and in presence everything sounds true,but i once read from his friend that he spat food at her in temper,what is the point of peace if you are at war with the is?what is the point in being an enlightened prick??uncompromising irreverance
to quote you sandra ;a man that has uncompromising irreverance is a prick
Aahhh, I like this, and good old UG might have liked this too.
If you want to see how ‘enlightened men’ and women fail, I have a repository full of collectors items… All these, may I say naive?, ideas about enlightenment! It’s one big myth, invented by men (hardly any women at this game, ever wonder why?) to bolster their position. I mean, what is more lofty than be beyond life and death!
What is the point in being an enlightened cunt, prick or whatever other bodily member you want to derogatorily point to? I mean, would you think that an enlightened woman’s fart smells all rosy?
That whole game takes you away from facing the unpleasant realities that come with being bodily alive. Judgment is what we do all the time, even if we judge our (or other’s judging). Actually, there is no way out of life, even enlightenment isn’t.
So, how come you don’t like a good blast?
Don’t wanna get blown away?
thats the whole point,why should one judge,?i have a theory about seeking,its my own observation,it goes like this,UG Krishnamurti searched and searched and searched some more for the answer,his search was so,intense,so deep,so strong that he overlooked what each humble zen monk had told him for years;”“UG wake up there is no self!!Osho and Ramana said this before UG ever clicked on,so UGs body is drained,its so tired,it gives up,he gets mellow,not realising that jiddu was tellin him the same message all the time.there is no enlightenment!but poor ol ignorant UG woke up,and started telling everyone there was no self,my god .what a new message he trully had??the only message that there is is,is that there is no self,UGs whole doctrine is of that,why not listen to byron katie or adyashanti for the same message in a sweeter music?
enjoying this l!
thats the whole point,why should one judge,
And yet are you not judging UG, goldendawn? I’m with Mushin here, I’m not sure we can get beyond judgement or even that it’s necessary. I have found, however, that ‘noticing’ when I judge someone as wrong or right seems to open up something for me.
why not listen to byron katie or adyashanti for the same message in a sweeter music?
I certainly see your point. Thing is, sometimes I like loud raucous music and sometimes I like soft and beautiful music. Mostly I like to feel perky and ‘alive’ and UG seems to inspire this in me.
You (I mean your no-self, of course, don’t I?) may be right, dearest Goldendawn, or you may be wrong - but who cares? We’re not gonna judge that…
Also, I’m not going to judge your theory. I’m only here to challenge your conclusion (apart from having some fun remembering UG) that Grumpy K. had a message. He didn’t. He was simply being his annoying, funny, wonderful self/non-self… you choose.
We primates are very, very good in seeing the rubbish in what people say, what they actually do and what they say about this, that or the other. We do need to have a strong bull-shit-detector with all the other human beings around, and a well known history of abuse, for instance. (Actually, to be quite frank, my bullshit-detector jumped into motion when I saw you judging K. for being so judgmental; but you didn’t care to hear that one, did you, Golden Dawn?)
So UG. was my bullshit-detector when I really needed that. I do think that he has some pretty Indian ideas about self etc. (ideas that I think are rubbish, to stay in the language), but I was and probably always will be thankful for his rough and loud ‘music’. I might be a bit like Sandra (and maybe Siona?), I do love sweet music (Azure Ray, for instance or Amiina), but I also love Nirvana, Pearljam and other hard ‘n heavy stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYEbNoMTszw
if he was one,why preach like this?i suggesthis ego was hidden to him,what the hell did he do?he spoke and lived for free,thats all.
Hi Goldendawn,
do you ever enter into a conversation and communicate with people, or do you just want me/us to tell you that you are right?
Ai. UG is dead. Does it matter whether or not he had a message? Even if he did, he doesn’t any more; he’d dead, and all that is left is our (individual or collective) interpretations of his recordings. I, personally, adore getting a taste of his spirit and energy, and I appreciate how his words oftentimes shake me out of those places where I feel stagnant or stuck, or make me feel more alive and in touch with the world rather than woozy and ‘high’ like the softer teachers sometimes do.
I have no doubt he’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but that’s fine. I’d no more want to go to bat for UG than I would defend Eckhart’s teachings. But then, I don’t like allowing my feathers to get ruffled. ;)
no,UG thought he was right,the basic problem with all philosophers,im saying that anything you see in UG is also in you,because the mind is a projector,im saying you are equal to UG,im saying its pointless worshipping UG,or even listening to him,why pick a cranky guru?whats wrong with nisargadatta?
goldendawn - I think Nisargadatta is wonderful!
Hope you don’t mind me taking the liberty with your words…:
im saying that anything you see in UG is also in you
why pick a cranky guru
ergo.. grumpy goldendawn?!
Actually I don’t think anyone here is disagreeing with you at all. None of us here (that I know of) are in the worshipping business. Mushin’s played both sides of that coin packed the whole thing in, and so have I in a smaller way. Not really my thing, in the end, though perhaps I’d rather be worshipped than worship !
Love,
Sandra
I liked Bidi Baba very much. I would have loved to hear what his wife felt about him doing the wise Advaitim. Did you read what he wrote in his late years? Utterly strange stuff, I’d say.
But then, I don’t believe that the Non-Dual is any more real than the Godhead or, if you like, Jehova or - for good measure - Allah. And neither is it less real. This whole approach (meaning the advaita vedanta approach) is not my cuppa tea anymore. I love and appreciate it’s beauty, but it goes for the myth of the given - the belief that existence is independent of reality co-creating spirit and spirit co-creating reality. This whole universe is one f***ing interdependent, co-creating, continually emerging and surprising-it-self and non-self whatever. So who needs a beyond everything when she can be with anything?
With a temper like UG I would also get impatient with people; and do you see him look at where the camera is in the video that GD posted?
I have yet to meet an enlightened man or woman that doesn’t have a mega-size ego to go with the greatest show on earth, the guru-/anti-guru show. And you’ve gotta have it with students like Golden Dawn and such: They’re telling you all the time what you are supposed to be like and what you are supposed to say or do as their teacher of choice.
It’s plain rubbish that anything that is out there is also in you: Everything that you see in UG is in UG or to put it differently - beauty is not in the eye of the beholder: it’s actually out there waiting for you to open up to it!
Saying that all of that is in you is merely a narcissistic ploy to get of the hook of being shaken to the marrow by reality.
First of all im not a student of anyone,i never meditate,chant,or any of that rubbish,never did,never will.but thats just me,
this quote here from mushin;It’s plain rubbish that anything that is out there is also in you: Everything that you see in UG is in UG or to put it differently
this is the basic ignorance on this planet, it says we were not created equal,if you see something in UG its you,how the hell can it be anything else??your thoughts,your mind,no-one in the world can give you experience but you,my whole point is there is no gurus,no teachers,no way,no path,its already complete,life is all.suffering,death,laughing,sex, its all life,the wars on this planet havent stopped and never will because everyone thinks they are someone and the other person is outside them,there was no ug,there is no eckhart tolle,when are we going to see this??the whole point to spirituality is that there is no one,ug is a reflection,thats all
Ok, I’m game…
You say: “this is the basic ignorance on this planet, it says we were not created equal…”
We were not created, I think. And equality is a goal, not a reality on this planet. In some places we are very far regarding this, in other places it’s rule of violence. And, moreover, it all depends on what you regard as equality…
You say moreover: “…if you see something in UG its you,how the hell can it be anything else??”
There are some reasons to think, that the mind (the instrument channeling information and energy according to all kinds of patterns) is not located ‘in here’, and certainly not in the brain. That happens to be my understanding. If you’re interested I could look up a video talk by Rupert Sheldrake that makes an elegant case for just that… (disclosure; RS is an old friend of mine)
So that’s how it can be anything else.
You: ”the whole point to spirituality is that there is no one,ug is a reflection,thats all”
I like it that you know what the whole point of spirituality is; on the other hand it doesn’t look like you are tolerant towards other views (look like means, that I think this from reading your comments; I don’t know it).
There is quite a few people, whom I don’t think are deluded, that think very different. They do not believe that everything is complete - there are some, like me, who think that life is not perfect or complete but that it is every generations job to help us move in that direction.
For someone that falls over Grumpy UG’s statements (and most of all his tone) you seem to be mighty sure of the universality of what you feel is true…
“We were not created, I think.” This an example of the minds ignorance,its just a thought,without thought all is one,all is equal.thoughts are the divider,the whole point to spirituality is that there is no one who thinks,there is no one,thats why UG seems undefinable to you,the world is as it is,argue with that all you want,i just detected some things Ug said as not being in line with what is,what is,is.can you argue with that?
For someone that falls over Grumpy UG’s statements (and most of all his tone) you seem to be mighty sure of the universality of what you feel is true…
of course i know whats true,its a BIG nothing,there is not one true thought,not one, i could listen to Rupert Sheldrake but he is also using thought,so whats the point?all im saying is that the truth is in us all
already,no need for father figures or worshipping orthers,why is there hostilty in you,when i say we are all equal?after all its always YOUR thoughts YOU use to judge others,you cannot know me,and i cannot know you,simple as
you say ;
“Ok, I’m game…” Game for a fight is it?strange
Your comment is produced without the use of thought?
And - since all of this is happening in YOUR mind, does it make sense to respond?
ah, the wonderful nature of online dialogue where we don’t have the benefit of tone of voice, body language etc.
knowing Mushin personally, I can ‘hear’ his comments as if they are spoken, and they land as being playfully challenging, direct and without hostility. I’m not honestly sure he’s capable of hostility - at least in the sense of being ‘personal’ about it. He loves a good discussion and doesn’t shy away from being direct.
I don’t know you personally, goldendawn - so it’s quite possible I’m completely off in this, but just from the written word I ‘hear’ what you write as being edging towards antagonistic. What gives me this impression is partly your absolute certainty that you are right in your views. You may be, I’m not saying you are not, but how do you know anything of which you write? Including that it’s all a big nothing? You mentioned the wonderful Byron Katie - so clearly you’ve experience her questions. Do you know for absolute certainty that it’s all a big nothing, or that there is not one true thought? Do you really absolutely know what’s true? (… who would you be without that thought?)
Maybe you do know. That’s fine by me, but in that case there really isn’t any opening - or reason - for discussion, is there? A place where we, together, take a look? It seems (at least by your posts) that you’d like to convert others to your point of view, no different to what you are saying UG and others do (and shouldn’t do) really.
Mushin has opinions too, (me too) sure he does - but in the way he shares (at least to me) he never assumes he’s right or has the only definitive truth of what is. It seems you do?
Love,
Sandra
Mushin & posted the above two comments simultaneously. I just got a notification of what he wrote first - I think he edited it to sound a bit softer, but I’m going to post it here (hope that’s ok Mushin) as it made me laugh out loud. For me it holds the resonance of his playful humour (mine no doubt), while the other is a bit more formal. I’m doing this just to show how facinating & subtle these kinds of intractions are. To me what he wrote lands as very funny, and I can see how it might land as being hostile to someone else - (actually I can’t see that, but I certainly will accept that it does).
I’m reminded of something a guru-type said to me once, which I love:
“why not experiment with everything you hear and experience as being
‘for’ you.” Not always easy, and I know what it’s like to be on the other end of an um challenging conversation, not always my favourite place, but I appreciate that the two of you are playing.
Ok for the record,
“I presume that this comment is produced without the use of thought.”
There is no such thing as thought,there is no such thing as mind,i say this out of no-thought,i dont need thought to write,it comes out of me,i had a so called awakening,i see the nothingness in everything,i never did anything to be this way,i am not trying to convert anyone anyway,its impossible.Ug himself said awakened beings dont always agree,i dont agree with his statements such as Thought is your enemy?”how is that an elightened view?there is no enemy of being.you write;
but just from the written word I ‘hear’ what you write as being edging towards antagonistic.
this is your translation,your computer sees it this way,im helpless to change that view,but why not ruffle feathers?why agree with UG?her was only a man,i dont see any importance in idolising such a character,im hear to tell you that enlightenment is not special.there is no one.only spirit,there is no thought,there is only nothing disguised as everything,when this is seen,there is no need for UG
and to respond to you mushin,there is no thinker in you either,there is no way you can ever find what you call the self,this is basically the message of spirituality,there is no self.where is the self?if you find it,let me know
Well, to me, Mushin can come across as equally certain in his views:
“It’s plain rubbish that anything that is out there is also in you: Everything that you see in UG is in UG or to put it differently - beauty is not in the eye of the beholder: it’s actually out there waiting for you to open up to it!
Saying that all of that is in you is merely a narcissistic ploy to get of the hook of being shaken to the marrow by reality.”
If you’re prepared to interpret that as playful and challenging (as well as blithely overlooking his use of words that I’d not speak around my grandmother, and which, as such could easily be seen as aggressive or intentionally offensive), why not extend the same generosity toward goldendawn? Or just tack on an implied “I believe” to the beginning or end of each of these comments (to my mind the ‘speech bubble’ implies this, anyway :). Anyway. I don’t think any of us in this thread are converters, and I have a feeling UG himself would cackle at anyone trying to defend his position (or lack thereof). ;)
My position is that I don’t know, but I’m not militant about this: someone else may have done better at figuring things out for themselves. Perhaps gd is one of them.
G’..da’….tried to play the video but couldn’t pull it up, so I do not really know what was mentioned.
…on a different note……the cat comment you have on your pic, truly enriches me with giggles…. a most belly full of laughter it is, indeed! …..love ya’ for that:))
This is to some of the sediments, at the beginning of this blog that you have mentioned about, Sandra, and that I found most humorous indeed:….and here is my answer to that!
…. Jealousy and greed does not a true Buddha make…simplistic as this may sound……’tis of true value and for the artist of deep loving, concern now make!
“V” and love be with you onto your journeys ahead, and may your passion of red, green, gold and pink run deep, with the energy of sympathy you so behold in your heart
……hell……WHAT AM I SAYING!!!
May ALL of the colors of brightness, be upon you,…..yes’m, indeed:-))))))
LOVE
welcome to the fray mum’s! lovely to ‘meet’ you & have you here.
Siona - yes I can see what you mean! And certainly shows that thing of ‘seeing what you (I, in this case) want to see’. i.e. my take on Mushin no doubt colours how I read his posts.
Maybe we can hear from both M and GD how they are actually feeling during this interchange? Playful? Combatative?
This thread is rather quickly no longer becoming about UG, that’s for sure…
Thank you, Siona, to point out how clear my message comes across, sometimes. For I do have one. Only, I can’t say exactly what it is, until there is a sweetheart like Golden Dawn - surely a awakened being, whatever that may mean - playing the ball just right.
What you quote, indeed, was not meant to be nice and considerate but in the vein of the man we probably honor here a bit.
And, dearest Siona, I’m not defending UG - who couldn’t care less like you so clearly point out - and I’m not attacking Golden Dawn, I’m putting a searchlight on these wide spread new agaey statements that come through her (as she denies having anythin to do with what she writes; no self nor thouzght involved.) These are, truly, a pain for me as I see many of my friends and people I like suffering because of unreflected restatement of the doctrine of anatman (no-self), and the narcissistic solipsism involved in saying that everything out there (in others) is inside ourselves.
So, dearest Sandra, it’s true, I do not feel antagonistic towards Golden Dawn - there wouldn’t be a way to do so. Looked up her profile, but nothing really there. No photos, no blog, no nothing. For all we know she doesn’t really exist :-) And then maybe, she’s a troll :-)
So maybe this helps…
But what’s wrong with suffering, Mushin? Do you really feel your friends and acquaintances are so defenseless or dim-witted that you need to be a crusader for clarity, and against the New Age, for them?
I’m curious about the feelings of those posting, but I’m also curious about what each of us want from this discussion–what we’re gaining from it and what we’d like to see–but this might be because in my case I’m not sure. It’s fun, though. :)
well mushin,first of all im a man! secondly you calling me a troll is a cop out,i dont really understand what a troll is,i posted a comment on this site about a year ago and then it was revived,maybe its that you dont like my message,im saying there is no self,ug said the same thing,but because i goldendawn the feminine troll say it,you have a beef?its very comforting for you to brush me away,label me a troll,why not discuss the basic message i have here,there is no self,there is no thought,everything is as it is,and i detected Ug wasnt totally down with what is,now what is so bad about these statements???
Siona: I’m also curious about what each of us want from this discussion–what we’re gaining from it and what we’d like to see
Good question. I don’t know that I personally have any objectives here other than the pleasure of interaction. I’m not hoping that goldendawn ‘agrees’ with mushin - is it about agreement? I do like to feel what I call an ‘opening’ in myself, and sometimes (in my experience) this happens in discussion if there is a real attention and presence - and for me it happens whenever there is a an ‘opening’ of sorts in others - doesn’t have to be agreement, but one of those indescribable moments of softening (which could also be quite ‘hard’ in texture). I’m always curious if it can happen online - it has for me a few times.
Even although I said I found people who come across as ‘being right’ antagonistic, I do enjoy your totality, goldendawn.
Love,
Sandra
sandra,i have never said i was right,read through the posts,im the one people are saying is wrong!its the other way around,if i question ug i get grief,no problem,why is UG special?what are your hidden thoughts on ug,why do you find him interesting?these are all reflective thoughts,u r u g,why hasnt anyone woke up to the fact that there is self
oh and sandra,this fascination you have with right and wrong is the dual side in you thinking im tryin to be right,im sorry about that
Siona: But
what’s wrong with suffering, Mushin? Do you really feel your friends
and acquaintances are so defenseless or dim-witted that you need to be
a crusader for clarity, and against the New Age, for them?
There is nothing wrong with suffering; I just want to end it where I can and supporting ending it, if I can.
I do not feel I have dim-witted friends, and I’m not doing for them, I’m doing because of everyone else who suffers through ignorance (and that is not a Bodhisattva thing; just my nature).
And I’m not on a crusade for or against anything. Most often I just go away. But Sandra is a friend and what happens on the blog of friends sometimes concerns me enough to spend some of my precious time getting some clarity there, if I can. (Over on facebook I’m having a ‘discussion’ of sorts with Palestinians and Israeli’s; there also alleviating the suffering that comes through i9gnorance is my motive.)
Siona: I’m curious about the feelings of those posting, but I’m also
curious about what each of us want from this discussion–what we’re
gaining from it and what we’d like to see–but this might be because in
my case I’m not sure. It’s fun, though. :)
I’m here because this is my friend’s blog and I’m subscribed to comments to them, and because it’s fun, and because this is getting at some kind of truth the Grumpy Way.Which happens to get my juices going these days…
what are your hidden thoughts on ug,
That he’s cute?!
And no, you don’t say you are right, goldendawn, and I’m not saying that you are saying it (ouch this kind of back and forth can get a bit weird) - only that it ‘lands that way’ with me.
why hasnt anyone woke up to the fact that there is self
I think you mean no self?
It does sound like you are unhappy with this situation, goldendawn? That you’d like us to ‘wake up’?
I’m not really concerned with the issues of self or no self these days, not sure if I ever was. Or awakening etcetera. I like some people, am vitalised by them perhaps is the more accurate description. If the truth is that they don’t exist and all I am is being vitalised by myself it doesn’t really matter to me actually. I enjoy the play, how it ‘is’ as you say. I don’t think about spirituality much. I don’t know what it is. I am aware that if I’m on ‘autopilot’ life is less enjoyable, and that some people (or a manifestion of myself, however you want to put it) inspire me to be less on autopilot, UG, however he came about to ‘be’ was/is one of those. I don’t place any particular specialness in him, no more than I place in myself. Why write blogs? I don’t know. I suppose you could say I respond to something and go with that. i.e. I write if there seems to be an energy to do so. I don’t question it too much, maybe I should?!
Love,
Sandra
Hi GD - so you come out of the closet after all :-)
I haven’t called you a troll, I just wondered, if you were. (If you’re truly curious about the meaning of “troll”, you know were to look.)
About your message of no-self I have already said what I feel, think and believe about it, at length actually; here in these comments. It doesn’t make sense to repeat myself does it? (By the way, usually only troll’s insist that one keeps repeating oneself). But I will do so anyway, “Give it to me one more time,” as the song goes…
im tryin to be right,im sorry about that
goldendawn - I think this is part of the one sentence? i.e. both those are my thoughts?
Definitely ‘right’ there in the sense that I do sometimes hold back from being ‘right’ as I have conditioning that says it’s wrong.
mostly these days it’s a feeling really - there are different flavours to ‘rightness’, I guess one is ‘rightness’ and the other is righteousness. I don’t find the latter much fun. But it’s definitely all OK, in one sense. In another it’s not. I can hold both views just fine.
Why hasn’t anybody woken up to the fact there is (no) self?
Because it’s plain mistake of categories or something similar. The self is no “being” in this one’s experience (trying to avoid the grammatically required “my” here); self is pure process, so more adequate would be to say, “Here is selfing happening.”
Selfing is completely natural, and most likely a function of locating oneself in space and time - it helps to know where you are and when. Well sometimes it does; especially when dealing with the authorities at borders and bureaucracies, for instance.
What a cool rush I see and feel…..whoo-aa!!
I like what you said Sandra, about “being on auto pilot” and not truly enjoying the out put of riches…shall we say, that comes about when in full swing of a force and is stagnant, more less, to any degree of up-rising when one just wants to flow and not motivate into other discoveries of themselves.
Auto pilot is good to a point (small dosages) but not a means and a living for becoming one with it.
I totally love your energy and wish others could comprehend your way of speech! It’s divine; it’s cute and charmingly delicious:)
Whew wee! A hot bed of Gaian comments! And over a year after the original post by Sandra! What gave rise to this insurrection / resurrection, Sandra?
Notifications are ON!
I think we have to ‘blame’ Siona for this one! Not sure how she stumbled across it but she was the first to post “about 1 year later” :-) I guess those who had already posted got notifications and it all began from there. But maybe there is more to it than that, not sure!
Gonna add a quote by UG I like: “A guru is one who tells you to throw away all the crutches
that we have been made to believe are essential for our survival. The true guru
tells you, “Throw them away, and don’t replace them with the fancy crutches
or even computerized crutches. You can walk; and if you fall, you will rise
and walk again.” Such is the man whom we consider, or even tradition considers,
to be the real guru, and not those who are selling those shoddy pieces of goods
in the market place today. It is a business; it has become a holy business to
people. I am not condemning anything. But as long as you depend upon somebody
for solving your problems, so long you remain helpless. And this helplessness
is exploited by the people who actually do not have the answers to your problems,
but they give you some sort of a comforter. People are satisfied with these
comforters and fall for this kind of thing, instead of dealing with the problems
by themselves and for themselves.”
:-) and another:
“My mission, if there is any, should be, from now on, to debunk every statement I have made. If you take seriously and try to use or apply what I have said, you will be in danger.”
Hey is that my bicycle pump with adyashanti’s little face on it lying out on the sidewalk? And who cut my Osho headband? Who tore the cover off my old copy of Play of Consciousness with Muktananada’s smiling face and put it on the dart board? Where’s my signed sandals? And my vial of ash made by somebody. Somebody… I can’t remember… Aw man…
I just want to say something…
I recently saw star trek the episode titled
“This side of Paradise”
in it.. there is this planet that has sorta a fungi that emits spores that makes the inhabitants fell ‘good’ no need to do anything; infact heals anything broken or torn…
when Spock is exposed to this it takes time for him to get affected… and good old Captain Kirk.. welll he was affected by being exposed to them twice… even after that… he “Lost” the sense of paradise/illusion and came back to his senses using anger…
the urge to do more; strive… to climb up….
Our very planet is alive simply because of this principle; survival of the fittest right… ?
So… if we just ignore everything; like it’s OK… i guess that’s one way to deal with life..
But think about this…
there are people… and there are people…
there are Guinness’s and there are street people… having the same size brains… It doesn’t matter what you do… you have to go for something higher.. otherwise… you will never know what true bliss is…
I remember a computer game i used to love “lemmings”… (for those of you who don’t know this.. its a bunch of people who have to be lead out of a situation… and they just keep marching from one side of the screen to the other… until they are lead out to an exit…)
our mind is an instrument to our soul’s freedom; for this maze that you see, hear, smell, taste, and touch around you
all this is just a maze…
we have to stop marching from left to right (from this birth suit to the next) and stop thinking that “it’s OK” to be here…
it’s not…
God is a King.. if He wanted to; He could dissolve this cosmos and take us all under His calm… but if He likes to play with us, to see who is the greater child, the greater achiever, the greater good doer, follower of His words (Bible, Geeta, Koran and so on) then…
then we should show Him that we are that ONE…
COZ listen to me…
THere are billions and billions of GALAXIES out there… each; capable of sustaining hundreds; if not thousands of Universe’s… you think He cares if we die unaccomplished… just laid back… enjoying life…?
But once we engage in Him (love is one tool - to love God and leave everything else as second best) we are in the driving seat of what it feels like to be a King…
A God…
We all learned a habit to play computer games from the best you know…
God.
Strive… to be more… always…. !!!
Today… coincidently Is Vivekanund Swami’s birthday… 12th Jan 1863
I love this Quote by him…